tangoviking wrote:
Could be a view in China that for the resources they now put into developing a costly stealth jet it has to be able to provide high endurance for the air defense role I.E long patrol times and larger weapons loads. Because perhaps they do not see the possibility to dramatically mass produce this type of jet today. Seeing how many they would need for national (and regional) operations.
Just 200 of these with Mach2+ capability and long endurance, plus a lot of BVR-missiles onboard, coupled with a sizeable AESA would not be a welcomed opponent for a foreign airforce that has always seen itself as masters of the airspace domain anywhere in the world.
The lower cost, short range single-engine FCA will be next...
12/27/2010 6:17 AM CST
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在天朝投入如此多的资源于隐形飞机上之后，丝带必须能保证其在空中防卫方面的持久力，即较长滞
空时间和大载弹量，因为空军目前不太可能大规模量产这种飞机，而他们在国家间（和区域间）的各
类行动又急需此类装备。
仅仅有200架这种航速超2马赫、续航力强、配有大量超视距导弹、有强大的相控阵雷达制导的飞机，
可是不够对手看的哦。人家美帝可是自视为世界航空工业的总瓢把子呢~
往后的将会是廉价，短程、单发的未来轻型战斗机...
tangoviking wrote:
Another one Bill.. small but a slightly more lined-up sideview. Sry no credit.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1466/35mnl29.jpg
12/27/2010 6:47 AM CST
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Bill，这是另一张照片...小了点但是更平行一些的侧面图。不保证可信度~
tangoviking wrote:
Oh and the canopy is down on that photo. Seems to be a row of people standing in the background too. Test run?
12/27/2010 6:59 AM CST
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囧，这张照片里降落伞（座舱罩？看不到图，不确定说的是哪一部分）已经放下来了。看来也有许多
围观群众站在后排啊。是试飞？
Marcase wrote:
Nice catch Bill and tangoviking.
It has indeed a very similar shape to the original JAST design, and if it does has a Lambda-type wing (ie optimized for "turn & burn" maneuvering) it could be seen as a Chinese PAKFA-type interceptor. Perhaps to provide a long-range land-based CAP umbrella as the aircraft carrier works up.
Big nose for a big AESA btw.
China usually adopts a block approach in (defense) systems, which means successive production runs show steady incremental improvements. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a stealthy "F/A" strike-fighter next and ultimately an "FB" type bomber.
The PLAAF still lacks enough interdiction strike (Su-30) and strategic bomber aircraft (obsolete Xian H-6/Badger). I expect the Jian-11/Su-27 Flankers production will ramp up soon, so the next logical step would be to extend the deep strike capability after this J-20 has proven itself as a good base platform.
But this is all pure pre-morning coffee speculation of course.
12/27/2010 7:01 AM CST
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Bill、tangoviking，乃们拍的很给力。
丝带看上去确实很像原本JAST（联合先进攻击技术）的设计，要不是它有个拉姆达型机翼（即近战格斗机动性最优化设计）它就是个天朝版的PAKFA型拦截机。也许是当航妈行动时为她提供一个远程陆基战斗机巡逻队保护网。
当然还有个远程相控阵雷达。
中国在防御系统方面通常采取整体性的思路，也就是说有了稳定的逐步改善，才会不停的大规模量产。所以如果接下来天朝出了隐形的歼击攻击机、战斗轰炸机，我也不会惊讶的。
PLA空军目前仍然缺乏足够的拦截机（苏30）和战略轰炸机（已过时的西飞产 H-6和獾型）。我希望歼11和苏27能加速量产，如果丝带确实给力，那空军的下一步就是加强纵深打击能力了。
当然这都还是预想而已。
Marcase wrote:
Just now wondering if this would be a dynamite sales pitch for an Indian JSF...!
12/27/2010 7:04 AM CST
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我就想知道丝带会不会掀起印度对联合攻击机的狂热购买潮……！
andrei_sh wrote:
Funny thing to see is that Russian VVS Red Star insignia on the vertical tails. Any suggestions to explain this, apart from an obvious one that this is a stupid fake?
12/27/2010 7:16 AM CST
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笑死人了，这飞机尾翼那边居然有俄罗斯VVS的红星标记！这不摆明了黑丝是个愚蠢的山寨么？
Marcase wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Roundel_of_the_Peoples_Liberation_Army_Air_Force.svg
12/27/2010 7:27 AM CST
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（一个link，免翻）
John S wrote:
"...and at this point I'm seeing a "lambda" wing planform, seen ... with a single straight leading edge and a kinked trailing edge. It first appeared on McDonnell Douglas JAST studies in the early 1990s."
I do believe the F-101 Voodoo predates the 1990s by a few decades.
But it was a McDonnell product, sans Douglas...
12/27/2010 7:29 AM CST
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“...此时我看到了拉姆达机翼平面图，机翼前缘直而后缘弯...它首先由麦道公司在90年代初在JAST（F-35从中衍生而来）中提出。”
我坚信F-101这种老怪物即使是在90年代也是独领风骚呢！
但它是麦克唐纳出产的东东，当时（麦）可还没跟道格拉斯合并……
tangoviking wrote:
@andrei_sh , PLA star. Yellow and Red.
12/27/2010 7:31 AM CST
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@andrei_sh, 这星星是PLA的标志，红黄两色。
Bill Sweetman wrote:
The Voodoo wasn't that stealthy... but I wonder whether the JAST wing was inspired by it. It's a good way to get proper edge alignments with a lift distribution that's a bit like a trapezoidal swept wing.
12/27/2010 7:44 AM CST
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Voodoo不够隐形...但我怀疑JAST式的机翼可能就是受它启发而来的。
这样的话可以通过这种机翼边缘的设置，使得飞机获得很好的升力，有点像梯形掠翼的作用。
Firefox wrote:
The best Christmass present ever. The day the fly it, I will start studying Chinese.
12/27/2010 8:22 AM CST
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（这可真是我收到的）最好的圣诞礼物了！哪天丝带真在天上飞了，我就开始学中文。
andrei_sh wrote:
Thanks, Marcase. I do know what PLAAF insignia looks like. Tangoviking, I'm not sure anybody can tell the color of the thin outline from the distance. But you forgot about the red ribbon detail in the Chenese roundel. http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
2/27/2010 8:23 AM CST
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谢啦，Marcase。我当然知道PLA的空军标志长啥样。Tangoviking，我不确定在远处还有人能清晰的
分辨出标志上那细细一圈的颜色。不过你忘记了一个细节，中国军徽有条红带。
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/index.htm
andrei_sh wrote:
Nobody will sell the 117S engines to Chinese, for the next 10 years at least. Our
Chinese brothers may keep dreamin.
12/27/2010 8:43 AM CST
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最少未来10年都不会有人把117S的发动机卖给TG的。我们的中国大兄弟们就做梦去吧~
David Sullivan wrote:
This makes sense if they have airborne surveilance equal or better to Global Hawk,
missiles equal or better than AIM-120, jammers equal or better than EA-18 and pilots
equal to Red Flag or NAS Fallon. Otherwise, they are just targets.
12/27/2010 10:40 AM CST
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如果他们有和全球鹰一样好的空中无线监控系统，不弱于AIM-120的导弹，好过EA-18的干扰发射器，
有跟美国空军红旗军演和海军NAS Fallon基地练出来的那样的老鸟，丝带才能算有用。否则就是空中
弱鸡。
BowlWeavil wrote:
We can all be sure Bill and his Australian internet buddies will be ready to crown this
aircraft the world's most deadly as soon as a clear picture of it emerges. (Assuming we
have to wait that long.)
12/27/2010 11:28 AM CST
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一旦丝带的清晰果照闪亮登场（可能都不用等到那时候！），我敢担保Bill和他的澳洲网友们肯定会
跳出来把它捧成大杀器之王的！
ghemago wrote:
Can't get the Ella or Memorex joke...
Can you help this non native english speaking member?
12/27/2010 11:32 AM CST
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不太明白你的Ella Fitzgerald或者梅莫雷克斯的笑话……
能不能给非英语母语的介绍下？
Bill Sweetman wrote:
Classy first post, BW. Come back any time you feel like contributing something useful.
12/27/2010 11:34 AM CST
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BW，乃的处女群嘲就挺给力的嘛！下次如果你肚子里有了干货，欢迎随时来分享~
ghemago wrote:
David S, you are over relaxed and that's the start of most failures...
12/27/2010 11:35 AM CST
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David S，骄兵必败....
Bill Sweetman wrote:
"Is it live, or is it Memorex?" was a slogan for cassette tapes, back in the far-off days when there were such things, and Ella Fitzgerald was featured in the Memorex ads.
12/27/2010 11:37 AM CST
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“这是直播，还是梅莫雷克斯（美国品牌）？”这是在磁带还存在的很久很久以前，某磁带厂家的一句广告语，Ella Fitzgerald出演了那个广告。
jetcal1 wrote:
Time will tell. If it's real and not an evolutionary dead end, we'll be seeing more of it. The questions are:
Can China come up with an engine sufficient for the airframe to reach its potential?
Are the avionics/fire control stealthy enough?
Will it end up like the B-2 with only a few built?
Could this be the final incentive for DoD to sell the F-22 to Japan?
And just to plug in a F-35 question;
Could this this be an opportunity for LMCO to kill the F-35 and put the F-22 back into production? After all - if this is the real deal, the whole projected threat scenario/schedule may have just gone out the window.
12/27/2010 11:40 AM CST
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时间会证明一切的。如果这是真的，而且会继续发展下去，我们会看到更多的东东。
现在的问题是：
中国能不能生产制造出可以使飞机充分发挥自身潜能的发动机？
丝带的航电和火控设备够不够隐形？
它会像B-2一样，产量稀少吗？
它会最终促使国防部向泥红国出售F-22吗？
再问个F-35相关的：
丝带的出现，会不会使得洛克希德停产F-35而重新开始生产F-22？毕竟如果丝带是真的，那F-35所针
对的整个所谓“假想威胁情形”也就不现实了。
============以上为Nicole翻译==============
BowlWeavil wrote:
Come on Bill, it looks fast, it has canards, and it isn't from Lockheed. If this isn't right up your alley then nothing is.
12/27/2010 11:49 AM CST
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得了吧，Bill。它看起来速度很快，有鸭翼，不是来自洛克希德。如果这都不和你味口的话，估计没有什么能了。
Harrier wrote:
The one thing that strikes me is that the main undercarriage design looks horrible, with big doors scraping the runway and long, stalky legs splayed out at quite an angle. Reminds me of TSR.2, which is not a great u/c design to mimic, although even that didn't dangle its doors in harms way.
12/27/2010 11:54 AM CST
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令我感到震惊的一点是主起落架的设计很恐怖。门大的都快刮到跑道了，而长又细的腿以相当大的角度支开。让我想起TSR.2，那实在不是个好的模仿对象，何况连TSR.2也没有将起落架舱门设计成那样。
tangoviking wrote:
@Harrier
I think the big doors you're refering to is actually a man in white coverall?
http://oi55.tinypic.com/fjibfm.jpg
Something I've noticed is the lack of fire extinguishers or fire-trucks.
12/27/2010 12:14 PM CST
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我觉得你所说的巨大的门实际上是个穿白工作服的人？http://oi55.tinypic.com/fjibfm.jpg
我注意到的，是附近没有灭火器或者是消防车。
mupp wrote:
It's had a news bit on CCTV (PRC state TV)...Might be part of the "bring it out to the public" roadshow
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3003/65489956.jpg
The Russians flew the PT PAK/FA almost a year ago, this might be a "hey we have one too" moment.
12/27/2010 12:28 PM CST
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曾经在CCTV中就有过相关信息披露。。。可能是在某种“走近大众”巡演节目里http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3003/65489956.jpg
俄罗斯在差不多一年以前试飞了PAK/FA原型机，这次可能是有点类似于在说“喂，我们也有”。
Rick-Joe wrote:
Bill, when you say "But ask yourself: why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft? Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
Bill，你说“而是问问你自己：为什么中国需要或者渴望得到短程隐形飞机？任何一个需要战机具备隐形能力的作战目标都远离大陆。同样，飞机越大，它是歼轰机的概率就越大，更可能就是轰炸机。”
-- you're implying the J-20 is a big aircraft right? In some ways I read it, it seems like you're imlpying the complete opposite.
这表明你想暗示J-20是一架大飞机么？可按我的理解，似乎你想说的完全不是这么回事。
Also, it's doubtful if the Russian's have supplied 117S or not -- regardless of what Jane's says, the Russians haven't been bragging on about this as they usually do with China's (now rare) military purchases. (Look at the way they proclaim the PLAAF is going to purchase the Su-35 where nothing of the sort has come from the Chinese side)
还有，俄罗斯是否提供了117S也值得怀疑--别管简氏怎么说，俄罗斯这次没有如往常那样，对中国的军购（现在已经很少了）大肆宣扬。（看看当中国方面对空军采购苏35还没有任何消息的时候，俄罗斯是如何高调宣扬的）
Also, on the length -- remember that Asians are inherently slightly shorter than Caucasians so if you're measuring through the rough heights of the sillouhettes you may wanna scale down a bit.
还有，关于长度问题--记着，亚洲人天生比高加索人要矮一些，所以如果你是通过侧高来粗略估算的话，或许你该把你的估值调小一点。
Solomon wrote:
strange timing on all this...
first we have this stealth fighter being shown....next we here that the anti-ship ballistic missile has reached IOC...
seems mighty strange for news of a rising China to be hitting all before a new Congress is to be seated with a meat axe aimed at the Pentagon...
i'm just sayin'
12/27/2010 5:30 PM CST
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所有一切的时机都很奇怪。。。
我们先是看到外泄的隐形飞机照片。。。然后我们听说反舰弹道导弹已经具备初期作战能力。。。
在一个对五角大楼虎视眈眈的国会即将产生之际，到处听到关于一个冉冉上升的中国的消息还真是奇怪。。。
我也就说说而已。
RSF wrote:
The PLAAF have been relatively open about their plans for China's stealth fighter programs, so we should really go back to prior statements to understand the intended capabilities of this aircraft.
中国空军对于中国隐形飞机项目的消息已经相对开放了，所以我们应该回到最初的话题，搞清楚这架飞机的建造意图。
The F-22 has been the bench mark that Chengdu and Shenyang designers have been targeting from the beginning. Openly PLAAF officials have talked of the program being based on four performance goals, also known as 4S, these being Stealth, Supercruise, Super-Maneuverability, and Short Take-Off.
F-22是成飞和沈飞的设计人员从最初就瞄准的标志性设计。中国空军官员曾公开谈到这个项目的设计目标是基于四个方面的要求，即通称的4S，分别是隐形、超音速巡航、超机动性以及短距起降。
So looking at these known metrics, I would respectfully argue against the statement of Marcase that the emergence of this Chinese stealth fighter is a good selling point for the F-35 (for India). Rather this supports the reactivation of the F-22 production line, and the need to develop the Raptor as it should have been vs. spending billions of dollars on the JSF, which will have limited value against the heavy twin engine stealth fighters now being developed by the Russians/India, and now China.
那么基于这些已知标准，鄙人对Marcase关于中国隐形战机的崛起将成为促成F-35买给印度的好理由的说法表示反对。继续投入巨资在JSF上意义不大，因为其在面对俄罗斯/印度和现在中国研制的重型双引擎隐形战机时作用有限，与其浪费数十亿美元在此，不如重启F-22生产线，将其发展到“猛禽”本应达到的程度。
This plane is a long way from being ready for production so we still have time. However, reviewing the statements of He Weirong Deputy Commander of the Chinese Air Force last year, this fighter is supposed to be operational by 2015, so a change course is needed NOW.
J-20距离大规模生产还有很长的路要走，所以我们仍然有时间。然而，中国空军副司令员何为荣去年说J-20预计于2015年服役，思及此言论，我们的计划或许需要立即有些改变了。
12/27/2010 9:30 PM CST
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Solomon wrote:
a whole lot needs to be said actually Horde.
实际上可说的很多，Horde。
if this is real then not only are the readers here at Aviation Week being caught flat footed but also, it would seem our defense establishment.
如果这消息是真的，那么不仅我们这些航空周刊的读者会惊慌失措，我们的国防部门也会如此。
but its not only the JSF that might need to be re-examined but the defense stance of every Western Nation...especially those in Europe.
而且不但JSF项目需要重新审视，每一个西方国家的防御状态也需要重新评估，尤其是欧洲国家。
the strength of the JSF lies not only in its stealth but more importantly in its sensor fusion. while i'm not sure that this Chinese "super" jet has those things (or for that matter if its even real) but what about legacy airframes that don't?
JSF的威力不仅在于它的隐形性，更重要的，是它的传感器融合技术。我不清楚中国的超级战机是否具备这些能力（而且也难以确定这消息到底是不是真的），但那些不具备这些能力的传统战机怎么办？
plans to simply upgrade F-15, 16, 18 fighters for the US get thrown out the window. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens are also not even remotely viable.
将F-15,16,18简单的升级下的计划可以忽略不谈了，台风、飓风、鹰狮连生存的几率都很小。
while it might suit your subject line Horde ole' boy to claim that this marks the end of the JSF, it could be the reverse...it might push an even larger buy.
它也许会如Horde所说的那样标志着JSF的结束，它也许会导致相反的结果。。。J-20的出现或许会导致F-35订单量的增长。
again, i have serious doubts about this airplane being real but its a great present to the DoD and the threat of it will keep the Pentagon rolling in cash even though we're in tough economic times.
12/27/2010 10:58 PM CST
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再次重申，我对于这架飞机是否是真的表示严重怀疑，但其出现对于国防部来说是一件好事，它将使得五角大楼即便在如此困难的经济状况中也得到大量的资金。
Talyn wrote:
Let's see several hundred T/Su-50's for the Russians and Indians (plus the Russians seeing to any taker)plus Su-35's, and several hundred of the new Chicom stealth fighter by the end of the decade plus a few hundred J-10's and J-11's.
让我们来看看俄罗斯和印度（以及所有俄罗斯期待的潜在买家）所有的数百架T/Su-50战机外加Su-35，还有数十年后土共拥有的数百架新型隐形飞机加上数百架J-10和J-11。
The USA has 140 deployable F-22's (they're obsolete since the Cold War is over according to Obama/Gates)plus less than 200 slightly upgraded legacy F-15's,a few hundred slightly upgraded F-16's and a few F-35's just getting up to speed.
美国拥有140架可作战的F-22，当然，按照奥黑和盖茨的说法，这些飞机已经随着冷战结束而过时了。除此之外，还有200架稍作更新的传统F-15战机，几百架稍作更新F-16和一些将将按计划完工的F-35。
The decision to not sell the F-22 to the Japanses & Aussies to drive down production costs, and to then cancel F-22 production ranks up there as one of the biggest bone-headed decisons of all time.
拒绝向日本和澳大利亚出售F-22（本可以降低生产成本），随后停止F-22的生产是有史以来所有二货决定中最二的一个。
But all those Reapers should make up for it.
但那些“死神”战机应该可以弥补一些。
12/27/2010 3:37 PM CST
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DamaclesIam wrote:
Ah, the incredulity of it all for those whose conspiracy theories know no bounds.
啊，对于那些阴谋论没完没了的人来说，这消息是在太不靠谱了。
In the meantime, Robert Gates and his merry band of followers (recall his recent predictions about the Chinese 5th Gens) continue to steer the direction of our defense capabilities by only looking in the rear vision mirror while failing to connect the dots with any semblance of sound strategic thinking.
同时，回想一下罗伯特盖茨最近作出的关于中国五代战机的预测吧，他和他那帮狗腿子仍旧依靠一些不知所谓的情报，而不是对所有迹象作出缜密的战略思考，来把握着我们的国防发展方向。
Since this thread is looking at but one of the obvious family of reference threats, it is apt to cite what one of our mates Down Under recently wrote about our nation's favorite and so favored response.
既然这个话题显然是关于假想敌的，那么引用下我们的伙伴Down Under最近写到的，关于在我们国家广受欢迎的说法是非常自然的：
"As advised to members of the US Congress as well as senior Parliamentarians down here in Australia, the most recent analysis of the JSF Program of Record by Air Power Australia has the following becoming obvious over the next couple of months, even to the most casual (and rearwards looking) observer:
“在向美国国会成员和澳大利亚这里那些高级国会议员提出建议时，澳大利亚空中力量最近的一份JSF项目记录分析陈述了一下这些观点，而这些观点将在接下来的几个月中，即便对于那些最普通、迟缓的观察家来说也变得显而易见：
1. The F-35A CTOL and F-35C CV will have to undergo significant re-design just to meet the contracted KPPs and underlying KPIs as stipulated in the JSF Joint Operational Requirements Document (JORD) dated 2002.
1。为满足2002年签署的JSF JORD（JSF合作运行要求文件）中的KPP（关键性能参数）和潜在KPI（关键性能指数）的要求，F-35A CTOL和F-35C CV的设计将会有大改发生。
2. The fact that the F-35B STOVL JSF variant will not be operationally viable, let alone safe to operate, will likely see this variant, now being referred to as the aerospace version of Herpes – the gift that keeps on giving, fade into history save for the cankerous warts and blisters the misplaced but dominant STOVL requirement forced on the designs of the other two variants.
2。F-35B STOVL实际上是不可操作的，更别谈安全操作了。这个事实将使得JSF的该变型逐渐淡出历史，除了那些STOVL标准。而现在这些标准已经被错误的强加于JSF另外两个变型的设计。
3. The resulting and significant redesigns of the other two (non-STOVL) JSF air vehicle variants and their associated engine/propulsion systems will cost in excess of the US$5.6 Billion currently planned; will take over three years while placing additional burdens and, thus, margins on the already unaffordable aircraft unit prices of each of these variants; and, will almost certainly struggle to produce aircraft that meet an already surpassed and, thus, obsolete air combat capability specification.
3。随之而来的另外两种非STOVL变体的设计以及相关的引擎和推进系统的大改将会导致现在560亿美元的预算超支；将会耗时三年，同时增加额外的负担和利润空间，导致已经高昂的单价更加高不可攀；同时，也几乎注定其将会艰难地造出一架一出厂就已经落后，因而必然被淘汰的战机。
Both the Sukhoi Su-35S and the T-50 PAK-FA, let alone the already planned upgraded versions of the Su-30MK fighter/attack aircraft already operational, guarantee the JSF will never be competitive, either in the air or in the
marketplace.
不管是苏霍伊的苏35S还是T-50 PAK/FA，我保证JSF将在战场和市场都无法与之匹敌，更遑论已经按计划升级的苏30MK战机了。
Then there are the aircraft being developed under the Chinese equivalent 5th Generation Air Dominance Fighter Programs, the J-XX/J-12/J-20.
然后，JXX/J-12/J-20，中国相当于五代战机的空优战机项目成果出现了。
Meantime, the Hon Ashton Carter will shortly announce the intention to extend the SDD Phase of the JSF Program, “to support the JSF production program”.
与此同时，卡特将会简短的宣布延长JSF项目的系统设计和演示阶段“以支持JSF的生产项目”
Though such an action is somewhat at odds with the US FAR’s, this is the euphemism that the Pentagon has decided to use to attempt to explain away the need for the rather massive re-design program of the airframe and engine on which they are about to embark."
虽然这于美国联邦航空条例的相关规定有些出入，但实际上是五角大楼已经决定，将试图对JSF项目即将动工的机身和引擎进行大改而辩解的委婉说法。
Some interesting points to ponder here.
这里有些地方很值得玩味。
FYC
Solomon wrote:
hmmm.
嗯
my disagreeing with you doesn't represent gullibility. it represents a different point of view. nothing more, nothing less. i think the F-35 is going to fulfill the role intended...a replacement for the F-16/F-18 and Harrier.
我不赞同你的意见并不代表我天真易骗。它只能说明我和你观点不同罢了，仅此而已。我觉得F-35将会完成它预定的角色。。。作为F-16/F-18和鹞式的替代。
but the question remains for you. if not the F-35 then what for the West (if this plane is real)?
a new development program for updated F-22 with F-35 systems? upgrades alone would again price that airplane out of the market....do you recommend that the technology for the airplane be shared with allies? congress has already made that determination...do you want them to reconsider??? do you think that is possible considering the new members that will be seated in a matter of days?
但我的问题依然存在。如果F-35不能作为西方的一个选项，那什么能？（如果J-20是真的话）
难道是配备F-35系统的升级版F-22？仅是升级就已经能让那飞机在市场失去竞争力了。。。你是不是建议说可以和盟友共享技术啊？国会已经做出最终决定了，你想让他们重新考虑下？？？在不久之后新国会议员将走马上任的时候，你觉得这可能么？
whats actually knee jerk is to assume that this airplane is a sky sweeping demon that will haunt allied fighter pilots for years to come.
真正的自动反应是想当然的认为这飞机将会是横行空中的魔鬼，会在接下来的日子里让盟军的飞行员苦恼不堪。
we heard the same thing with the Mig-29...with the SU-27...with the SU-47...with the PAK-FA and now with this Chinese mystery machine.
我们在米格29出来的时候听过这种说法，还有苏27，还有苏47，还有PAKFA，现在再加个中国迷之战机。
12/28/2010 12:46 AM CST
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Marcase wrote:
I second that.
The J-10 is still struggling today, and just using the Su-27/30 copies as a further stepping stone to an all singing, all dancing, fully functional J-20 is a very optimistic expectation, to put it mildly.
我同意你的观点。
J-10直到今天仍然在挣扎。说的好听点的话，仅仅以苏27/30复制品为基础，指望能够造出一架一路高歌猛进，性能完备的J-20真是一个非常乐观的想法。
RSF, as usual, I was just throwing it out there, considering the F-22 is a pipe dream for every air force except the USAF, thanks to the US Congress, so what's left?
The proposed Russian/Indian joint PAKFA version is still on the drawing board, so only the JSF is a viable alternative in the near future (emphasis future...).
RSF，像往常一样，我只是说出我的观点，考虑到由于美国国会的原因，F-22对于除了美国空军之外的所有空军来说，都是一个遥不可及的梦，那还剩下什么？
之前提到的俄罗斯/印度合作项目PAKFA还停留在图纸上，那JSF是未来短期内唯一可行的替代了。。。（注意，我强调的是未来）
India still has some serious (local) issues with China, and both use Flankers. If China can build, say, a hundred operational J-20s and India can't field their PAKFA variant fast enough, it may feel overmatched and demand an off-the-shelf alternative that's "up there" in 5th gen/4S capabilities.
印度仍然与中国有着严重的纠纷，而双方都有Flankers。如果中国能够制造，比如，一百架J-20，而印度却不能及时完成他们的PAKFA变体，那么他们就可能会感到被超越了，进而需要一种现成的五代机作为替代。
12/28/2010 1:56 AM CST
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jackjack wrote:
Talyn wrote
The decision to not sell the F-22 to the Japanses & Aussies to drive down production costs, and to then cancel F-22 production ranks up there as one of the biggest bone-headed decisons of all time
拒绝向日本和澳大利亚出售F-22（本可以降低生产成本），随后停止F-22的生产是有史以来所有二货决定中最二的一个。
australia was offered the f-22, we didnt want it and chose the f-35
美国向澳大利亚提供F22了，但我们没要，而是选择了F35。
12/28/2010 3:04 AM CST
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jackjack wrote:
so, Bill and Horde, can we expect to see advertised next week
FOR SALE, Best Offer, ALL only slightly used
Rafales, Typhoons, Gripens, F-15,16,18 Etc.
plus the carriers, remember the ch killer missile
那么，Bill和Horde,我们是不是在下周就能看到这样的广告了：
大降价，跳楼价，全部九成新。
飙风、台风、鹰狮，F15、16、18啊。
还有航母，还记得中国的航母杀手不？
will they be able to sell them or will they all go to scrap ?
他们能不能甩货成功啊？还是那些东西最后都会被扔进垃圾堆啊？
so do you recommend canceling the f-35 and build f-22's or just buy Ru or Ch new fighters ?
所以，你是在建议我们取消F35，生产F22，或者干脆买架俄制或中国飞机算了？
going by you boys, the Pak as the high with su-35 as the low and lots of j-20's to fill any gaps killing ships with the new missile, sounds the best plan
像你们这么搞的话，PAK作为最高配置，苏35作为最低配置，再来一堆J-20，用那个新型导弹攻击舰只，听起来就是完美计划啊。
